An argument with a Friend, Failed Crockers Rules.

Its a policy to document key mistakes and try to factor them in future plans. I tried to cut and paste it as much as I can with using ctrl+H.

Context:

  1. Its about hitting kids as wrong. 
  2. In the Philippines it is legal to physically discipline a child by only his/her parents.


ME i have to spank my son sometimes.
Like · Reply · 14 hrs
_
Hide 52 Replies
Friend-1
Friend-1 You never "have" to. You just do.
Like · Reply · 1 · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Lolz. dude you dont remember being a kid eh.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Wait. so you were never hit as kid? And if you are hit, you think your parents Didn't HAVE to ever hit you? Then you sir have an exceptional childhood. I envy you.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 Uh, what? Are you arguing Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc? "They hit you, so obviously they HAD to hit you"?
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 Are you arguing that no one EVER hits a child unless they HAVE to?
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 And what on earth is your criteria for "Have to"?
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME That's not my assumption dude. Thats your assumption.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME sorry. let me check the posts again.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Yes I have to. My criteria is that its complicated
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME that its too complicated to say and communicate.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Also please answer the question. has your parents ever hit you. Mine have. I even have a scar.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 Yeah, I've been hit. And I do remember my childhood. How is that relevant in any way?
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME So your parents never had to hit you.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME ?
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Let me get this straight, Its simply that hitting kids are wrong - No exceptions? Whoah!
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 You have to define "have". And by my criteria, no, they never had to. Not me, not my siblings, no matter how hard or soft they spanked. When you don't want an adult to do something, is hitting them acceptable to achieve that? Why would it be acceptable to hit a child, then?
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Have you asked them?
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Also - did they ever hit you? (Lets remove the complicated have)
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 Does it matter what they think? You obviously think you HAVE to physically inflict pain upon your child. My parents obviously thought they HAD to, too. But does that matter?
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 > Also - did they ever hit you?

I already answered that.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Ah ok. thats where you fail to put the human equation. Also dude you over simplified a complex topic. Dude DUDE did you go out and talk and understand the side of a parent. Like me. YOu think I abuse my kid just because I hit him
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Ok so your parents hit you. And you think they didnt need to hit you. But your basing that on your call at this time, without knowing how they felt or the circumstance they were in. So your memory and understanding of the matter is better than their understanding as an adult when they did hit you when you were a kid?
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 "Parents work in mysterious, complicated ways" is not a valid argument either. And if you're going to argue FOR hitting children, the onus is on you to provide the justification for it. And a huge justification it would have to be, for the harm you (and the other parents you are validating) are inflicting on children.
Like · Reply · 1 · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME I agree. But so is oversimplifying a topic. I can say its complicated and I'm not using the God works in mysterious ways argument. I think you should investigate further by talking to parents - catholic, bhuddist, what ever parent and ask them if they hit their kids.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Just because I cannot bring to bear and entire argument of the topic right now at your convenience doesnt mean that your claim and perspective is a Complete and Objective Assessment of the situation.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 Uh, again, you have it the other way around.

*I* don't have to prove you wrong, in the same way I don't have to ask Catholics, Buddhists, and other parents why they believe in god. That's not on me.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Dude i"m saying your thesis as to Hitting Kids are Bad sucks. because you failed to account that Legally hitting kids is OK in the philippines and Ok in general. You have to bring the burden of proof if you are talking about Philippines.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 Aaand now your argument is "It's legal, so it's okay."
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Ok.dude we grew up in FF and I'm trying to say its complicated and your saying my complicated is Mysterious. I'm saying talk to people who have the time to explain it to you. Dude I ran out of time being able to hang out being a parent - I'm telling you its complicated. Its a LONG kwento and already you've made up your mind. Go free thinker!
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 It's a simple thesis. Do not physically hurt people without their consent. Not adults, and not children.

But you're telling me that there are cases where a parent just HAS to hit their children. Why? Oh, you can't tell me, but surely if I ask some oth...See More
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Oh self defense is not good then
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME if we are going to be pendantic and no assume good faith (that obvious exceptions to thesis is consdiered) then thats what happens.\
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 You know we're talking about hitting children in the context of discipline, so unless you're trying to discipline your kid by defending yourself, "self defense" is not relevant.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Yes. But you are ignoring obvious nuances and complexities. you threw good faith out.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 You have to actually mention those nuances and complexities for them to be entered into the argument, otherwise you're just treating them as "mysteries that apparently other parents can tell me, but you can't"
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME I didnt say mysterious. Lets Complciated = ton of information right now. Mysterious = unknowable.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME For simplicity = since you like that I hit my kid and lets leave it at what you want it to be. Simple.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 > For simplicity = since you like that I hit my kid and lets leave it at what you want it to be. Simple.

I don't understand this sentence.

Also, mysterious is not unknowable. difficult or impossible to understand, explain, or identify.; deliberately enigmatic
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
ME
ME Dude forget it, I'm going to sleep. Believe what you want.
Like · Reply · 13 hrs
_
Friend-1's friend
Friend-1's friend Haha! Im the eldest child in a brood of 3. My parents kind of regret ever resorting to hitting me for discipline. They were young - dad was 20, mum was 17 when I was born. They were already quite mature when they had my brother who's 7 years younger th...See More
Like · Reply · 1 · 11 hrs · Edited
_
Friend-1's friend
Friend-1's friend And this bit kind of bothers me "Dude I ran out of time being able to hang out being a parent - I'm telling you its complicated." So dude, you ran out of time being able to hang out because you became a parent ... and? What does your kid have to do wit...See More
Like · Reply · 1 · 11 hrs
_
ME
ME Ok I get it. You have no mind being changed. It's OK.
Like · Reply · 5 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 See here for more: https://www.facebook.com/phwraengck/posts/10155997561379427
Like · Reply · 4 hrs
_
ME
ME Wait if you are such free thinker - whats your criteria for doubt of your stand? What standard of evidence and information will dislodge you that this is not so cut and dry?
Like · Reply · 3 hrs
_
ME
ME Also don't throw links at me. If you don't understand how to connect to people anymore and how that is a terrible method, your just reinforcing your echo chamber. If a link is the price to pay to talk to you - your ticket prices are to high.
Like · Reply · 3 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 Uh, the link is to a post I made about what makes parents hit their children, but I can copy paste it here if you don't like clicking.

Also, my standard of evidence is a scientific study, or even a plausible argument that it benefits children to be physically harmed by their parents. Something other than "ask your parents or other parents (for anecdotal reasons)". Because really, if you look through this conversation, you have never given me ANY argument as to how it's a good thing to hit your children.
Like · Reply · 3 hrs
_
Friend-1
Friend-1 Here's the contents of that link I posted, if you prefer to read it here:

So after a discussion last night about hitting children, I decided to look into the reasons people hit children. It's not as complicated as they might make it out to be.
A researcher writes that parents are more likely to favor physical violence against children if:
"They strongly favor it and believe in its effectiveness;
they were themselves physically punished as children;
they have a cultural background, namely their religion, their ethnicity, and/or their country of origin, that they perceive approves of the use of physical punishment;
they are socially disadvantaged, in that they have low income, low education, or live in a disadvantaged neighborhood;
they are experiencing stress (such as that precipitated by financial hardships or marital conflict), mental health symptoms, or diminished emotional well-being;
they report being frustrated or aggravated with their children on a regular basis;
they are under 30 years of age;
the child being punished is a preschooler (2-5 years old);
[and] the child's misbehavior involves hurting someone else or putting themselves in danger"
Also,
"In many cultures, parents have historically been regarded as having the right, if not the duty, to physically punish misbehaving children in order to teach appropriate conduct. Researchers, on the other hand, point out that corporal punishment typically has the opposite effect, leading to more aggressive behavior in children and less long-term obedience. Other adverse effects, such as depression, anxiety, anti-social behavior, and increased risk of physical abuse, have also been linked to the use of corporal punishment by parents. Evidence shows that spanking and other physical punishments, while nominally for the purpose of discipline, are inconsistently applied, often being used when parents are angry or under stress."
"International human-rights and treaty bodies such as the Committee on the Rights of the Child, the Council of Europe, and the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights have advocated an end to all forms of corporal punishment, arguing that it violates children's dignity and right to bodily integrity."
Despite the studies condemning corporal punishment,
"Social psychologists posit that this divergence between popular opinion and empirical evidence may be rooted in cognitive dissonance. In countries such as the US and UK, spanking is legal but overt child abuse is both illegal and highly stigmatized socially. Because of this, any parent who has ever spanked a child would find it extremely difficult to accept the research findings. If they did acknowledge, even in the smallest way, that spanking was harmful, they would likely feel they are admitting they harmed their own child and thus are a child abuser. Similarly, adults who were spanked as children often face similar cognitive dissonance, because admitting it is harmful might be perceived as accusing their parents of abuse and might also be admitting to having been victimized in a situation where they were helpless to stop it. Such feelings would cause intense emotional discomfort, driving them to dismiss the scientific evidence in favor of weak anecdotal evidence and distorted self-reflection."
It's really not that complicated.
Like · Reply · 1 · 3 hrs
_
Friends-1's friend-2
Friends-1's friend-2 Wait, what? Friend-1's friend, I never knew you had a brother! Whoa!
Like · Reply · 3 hrs
_
Friends-1's friend-2
Friends-1's friend-2 Science is like a dictionary. When you don't understand a word well, you look it up. According to science, when you hit your children, you're abusing them, which makes you a child abuser. It's not your fault that you didn't know better then. But you do now. That's what the links are for. If you ignore the links, because you hate stuff that don't agree with you, that would make you, not just a bad parent, but also a bad person.
Like · Reply · 3 hrs · Edited
_
ME
ME So what is your criteria is that its simple?
1) not complicated
2) what is the criteria by which will over turn your claim...See More
Like · Reply · 12 mins
_
ME
ME 3) if Bias is a Factor to Understanding something - then your failure to account for it in your methodology. As both the external person outside the circumstance is not well factored in this "Simple Assessment"
I'm able to claim I hit my kid. My bias towards the circumstance.
Yet your not able to claim havent raised one.
Like · Reply · 10 mins
_
ME
ME This kinda disgusting me because as Free thinkers I would have thought by now - that TIME and Know-ability is barrier to understanding and that our time regading any topic is finite. That while doubt is the status quo, any certainity has to be dislodgeble by a criteria of being able to say "How am I wrong" "What don't I know and cannot know."
The ability to say when our standards to have our mind change is overwhelming, and TIME to be able to rethink and re-examine it finite - maybe we are in a bubble and at a certain age we stopped entertaining new information - because challenging it is so time consuming and emotionally draining.
I guess its when I see someone so sure of themselves - irrationally pisses me off.
Sorry I violated Crockers Rules. I'm in too deep..

Comments